A blog on objective thought in today's irrational, subjective world tackling some of the hardest questions of existence using reason and logic.
Published on November 27, 2004 By John Galt In Philosophy
Lately I’ve been watching as people get more and more upset and argumentative fighting over who’s right, democrats or republicans. I’ve also been watching so many other arguments to the point of stupidity about which cell phone system is better… All of it has a common thread. There is a continual “that’s just my opinion, I could be wrong” implied corollary to everything everyone says but at the same time, the division between people because of the arguments is surreal. The PC attitude has accomplished one thing in its now fully developed stage of life: The disenfranchisement of the entire western civilization.

Why? Because people are arguing about subjective beliefs. To put it another way, 2000 years ago, this would have been about whos god was kewler, not about which moron for president should run the country. We’re witnessing the new religious wars. Everyone entitled to their own opinion regardless of if they have facts to back it up, and everyone joining together making cliques just like junior high. If you agree, great, come be part of my clan (religious sect), if you don’t, well I can’t tell you you’re wrong, but I don’t want to talk to you any more.

I have news people: Bush and Kerry were equally bad for the country and equally wrong in their position (not that you could actually tell the difference, since they were just spouting whatever polls showed would score them points). The reason why they were both wrong? Subjectivity.

There are three types of statements. Preference, subjective and objective. Preference is (hopefully) based on the objective evidence. (I.e. I prefer this car because it has just as good gas mileage as that one, but has more horsepower.) Often preference is based on values. (I value horsepower over comfort, thus the fact that the rid isn’t as smooth doesn’t matter to me). Value is based on experience, which is hopefully based on objective results assimilated into one’s memory to form a whole.

Objective statements are those that communicate scientific results. These are statements that given all of the current knowledge are confirmed to be true. In the case of logic arguments, these can be said to always be true because of a logical proof that demonstrates that there is no possible contradiction in the statement. If it is a mathematical argument that you’re conveying, then it can also always be true. (i.e. must always be true, to have any mathematical value)

Subjective statements are “I feel this” or “I have faith that” which have no objective backing or are based on objective information that does not support the claim. I’m sure you can come up with lots of examples of both Kerry and Bush doing this. They do it on a regular basis. Generally they both trot out studies done, that have little or nothing to do with the topic and use it as proof that they’re approach is better than whatever failed before. My personal favourite example of this is the US and Canadian food guide. The food guide is based on many studies, but the ones that interest me the most is what got us the “protein is as bad as candy” deal. The funny thing is that some Master’s degree student wanted to get his masters, so he cooked up a study to prove his point that protein was bad for your kidneys. He took < 100 people and gave them lots of protein and others very low protein. ‘Lo and behold at the end of the study, the people taking protein had kidney problems more often than those that didn’t. Thus the food guide was born and the fattening of America began. No one bothered to question a study that was done specifically to prove a subjective conclusion. No one bothered to say, “wait a minute, you don’t create a study to prove a point, you create a study to try and disprove it.” No one said “WAIT! Be objective!” Turns out that the people in the study all had kidney disease and as a result of making their kidneys work harder (protein takes more effort for your kidneys to digest) their weak kidneys failed more often. (Go figure) End result? >40% of the American population is obese because one guy decided that he was right without any objective proof, and created a study to prove it. Every study (there has been two, because no one bothered to think the guy could have been wrong) since has proven that protein has absolutely no negative effect on healthy kidneys and when taken in correct proportion (1/3 of your diet should be protein, 1/3 fat and 1/3 carbohydrates) is actually beneficial to your kidneys (don’t get me started on Atkins).

The end result of all subjective statements is negative. They destroy, they never create. People are wrong in their opinions based on feelings almost always (sometimes they get really lucky, but it’s more like winning the lottery odds than anything) and the result of acting on wrong assumptions is always negative.

For instance, say I made an assumption that cocaine was ok for me because all of my friends on it seemed healthy and happy. (And I hadn’t seen the f*ck up that their lives had been outside of the front that they put on) I would then act on this and start taking cocaine, and completely destroy my life, my children’s lives and everyone else’s lives. Why, because I decided to create a preference based on a subjective assumption instead of objective fact.

It also results in arguments that can only be resolved when someone brings in objective fact. (You know, the guy at the party that you all jumped all over, because he pointed out reality to you) The end result is statements like “you’re both right” (impossible) or “Well you’re entitled to your opinion, I don’t agree.” Little tip for you: If you hear either of these statements, run, run as fast as you can. They are your tip off of a subjective argument that can only lead to the horrible separation that you saw between democrats and republicans, and you see between Protestants and Catholics.

First let’s take apart these statements. “You’re both right”. What exactly does this mean? It means that two opposing views on the same topic are correct. To put it another way, A is A but it’s also B. First law of logic. A is A. It cannot be B, it cannot be C or anything else. If A becomes B then it is something else, and it is no longer A. Thus it is impossible to have two correct answers to the same question. There are only three possible results to any disagreement. Either you’re right, or they are right, or you’re both wrong. This kind of thinking (you’re both right) is endemic in the day and age post Kant, and post Communism. It came from Kant stating that you can never know the truth, so everything is subjective and you’re always wrong, and so is everyone else. Communism was the bastard child of Kant, begat by Marx and Ingles, as a result of this assertion that is very tasty at first blush. It is based on the premise that if both of us are wrong, then how can we measure which is a better position? Communism’s answer is that the will of the majority (society, socialism) is always the better position. The end result was 50 million dead in the USSR and millions of Jews dead to the National Socialist Party of Germany (Nazi). And make no mistake, all of these dead isn’t as a result of the assertion that society is always more important, that’s just the nasty side effect. It’s the base position that there is no truth, therefore you’re wrong that caused these massacres.

“Well you’re entitled to your opinion”. What does this mean? Well to start, let’s get to the implicit start of this sentence. “I think I’m right, but you’re entitled to your opinion.” Makes it much clearer eh? If you believe you’re right, then the other guy MUST by definition be wrong. Are you entitled to be wrong and continue to hold that wrong opinion? Sure, so long as you don’t communicate it, and don’t act on it. The moment you do either, it is the moral requirement of those that believe in truth to shout down the person that is wrong, and to prevent them from acting on their wrong assumption if anyone other than the person themselves is going to be hurt by it. (i.e. shouting down terrorists when they spout their crap, and killing them dead when they decide they want to be a martyr and kill a whole pile of people with a suicide bomb) So what you’re really saying is “you’re wrong, and I know it, but I’m not going to do anything about it.” Or “I think you’re wrong, but I don’t believe in myself enough to stand up for what I believe in, and thus will not defend my position.” In the former, the apropos statement “The price of freedom is eternal vigilance” (never said by Churchill, simply a really good para-phrase, but such is most quotes) In the later, you don’t have the belief in one’s self to even stand up for what you believe in. Fortunately, most of the time it’s the former, not the later.

Notice the key here. There is no objectivity. Objectively, we can state that there is truth. Why? Because the statement “There is no such thing as truth” (often used by subjectivists) can only be true if it is in contradiction with itself. And then you’ll get the logical second response… “There is only one truth: There is no truth”, which of course is creating a contradiction in and of itself. Further we can state objectively that socialism can only ever lead to death. (any form of it, “the third way” or otherwise) Why? Because it’s based on a contradictory statement to start with. It relies on individuals sacrificing themselves for the greater good, which if people did so, would result in the destruction of society because all of the individuals would be dead. And if they don’t (like now) then they are hypocrites and anti-society be definition. Thus we can absolutely and completely state that socialism in any form is wrong. And start to find the right way.

In an objective argument, the only loyalty of anyone in the argument is to find the truth. It isn’t about ego and “being right” it is about finding the truth so that you can better your own life with the knowledge. (and we all know just how much knowing the number of moles in a in a grain is going to make our lives better…(chemistry)) Hence the term objective. There is no “point of view”, there is no “balance” and there is no “I am right.” There is only these are the facts, and here is the non-contradictory result. You may be right because you are the one to state it, but you’re simply a messenger of the truth, and thus do not have any value in that truth. (Rather humbling eh? Keep that in mind the next time you tell that guy that buds into the argument you’re having and points out the truth to you, that he’s arrogant) You can see the folly of the other way by looking at our adversarial system of justice as it stands now. It is no longer about finding the truth, it is about selling your position to the jury. The arguers of the case (messengers of truth) thus become more important than the truth that they are supposed to be presenting. (arrogance) Hence the failure of our (in)justice system as it stands now.

In a world where the highest value is truth, not opinion, where preference is based on fact and values based on those same facts there is no disenfranchised because we are all one under TRUTH. It is time that the world drop subjectivity and acknowledge the evil of the concept and work to stamp it out. It will take a long time. We have to change the learned behaviour of an entire world. We have to start by banishing socialism to the pit of hell (ironic from someone that knows objectively that there is no god eh?) where it came from, and then work backwards from there. It’s time to embrace the values of the renaissance, and the values of Aristotle again, and come back into the light, instead of continuing to crawl inexorably into the shadow that is ignorance created by the belief that you can never know anything, and you’ll always be wrong.

Then and only then can we come together as individuals with a common cause, to learn what it is to be part of a brother/sisterhood working on a common goal, with a common purpose: Truth. Truth is the destroyer and the creator. It destroys the evil of lies and liars. It creates freedom, it creates everything around us. It ties us together, it allows us to move forward. It educates us, and it improves our lives if we allow it to. It’s time to believe in truth again!

Comments (Page 1)
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on Nov 27, 2004
I think there is much truth in what you say, but at the same time I think it is possible for two people to express their differing opinions and everything still be ok. But that's just my opinion
on Dec 05, 2004
differing opinions....

One is right, the other is wrong, or they're both wrong.

Differing preference, no problem as long as it's based on objective fact that is also right.

Differing opinions implies (by defintion) that two different assertions of fact have been made to the same question. Since every question only has one right answer, at least one must be wrong by definition. Being wrong is NOT ok. If you choose to live in ignorance that is your choice. However if you attempt to express that wrong answer you just made it the responsibilty of good people to destroy your wrong opinion and ensure that it never takes root.

I strongly encourage you to read Rand's "Introduction to Objectivist Epistimology" and Aristotle's "Physics" (and "Categories"). The effectively destroy the notion of multiple right answers to a single question, and outline the only valid approach to learning and knowledge. The end result of said reality is that any untrue opinion or point of view is very dangerous, especially to children that are looking for a clear, non-contradictory position to look up to and they so seldom find.
on Dec 05, 2004
Wow, awesome article. You've obviously done a lot of reading (I love reading Rand too )

The only problems I have at this point (which I'm sure is probably something I don't entirely understand and you could clear up) is, first, I'm not really sure how you define an opinion. See, I don't think subjectivity is a problem if it's never acted on or expressed. You stated that the end result of subjectivity is always negative, but that seems pretty subjective to me. Which makes this whole thing really confusing to me. Unless you're defining an opinion as something that is actually expressed or used to make another decision, and then it's a problem.

Another issue I have is that you just said that differing preference is fine as long as it's based on an objective fact. Your article also said that is it often based on experience. So if different people have different experiences, or interpret experiences differently, wouldn't that mean that people can have different preferences based on objective fact? The way I see it, that can be applied to a lot of different conflicting opinions.

Another problem I have (and this is a big problem I have with Rand) is that not all people are intelligent or capable of being intelligent. Why should we hold people responsible for making false assumptions or interpreting things differently if they aren't capable of doing otherwise? Have you noticed how Rand's characters are always geniuses? That would also explain a lot of differing opinions.

I don't know, maybe these don't even apply, but they're just some thoughts I had.
on Dec 06, 2004
The only problems I have at this point (which I'm sure is probably something I don't entirely understand and you could clear up) is, first, I'm not really sure how you define an opinion. See, I don't think subjectivity is a problem if it's never acted on or expressed. You stated that the end result of subjectivity is always negative, but that seems pretty subjective to me. Which makes this whole thing really confusing to me. Unless you're defining an opinion as something that is actually expressed or used to make another decision, and then it's a problem.



Sorry for not being clear. You hit the nail on the head. I'm concerned only with action. If it's a belief that is held that is never acted upon, then it cannot possibly harm anyone. The reality is though that the concept of a belief that is not acted upon in some way is an accidemic construct. Your beliefs define your actions, they can't not. Thus except in accademia belief is acted upon. Subjective beliefs are always negative because a subjective belief is one defined in ignorance. Ignorance results in action with unknown consequences which are by definition bad. (and most of the time the result of the action based on a subjective belief is also bad, because it's a wrong belief, but it can't be said to ALWAYS be bad.)

Intelligence has little to do with recognizing reality. Some of the most brilliant people in the world delude themselves more than any others I have ever met. Recognizing reality is a learned ability, and not one that is inate (I have taught it at least the first steps to a few people, mostly ex-gfs with a measure of success... they just hit the wall on altruism ). It can be taught, just like we are taught (in North America) to breath with our chests instead of our diaphrams. Most people would assume that there is really only one way to breath and we're born with the knowledge. On the contrary. As babies we all breath with our diaphrams and are taught by our parents through mimicry and through mothers discouraging it, to breath with our chest even though it's far more effective to breath with your diaphram. Musicians then un-learn this behaviour to become effective musicians (well woodwind and brass anyhow).

Conversely, I have a strong suspician (you can tell I'm not using a spell checker right now eh?) that most intelligence is actually the recognition of reality, and it is entirely a learned trait. Our children are simply not trained on how to recognize reality and certainly not trained to keep it in mind at all times. As adults we generally learn the hard way a little but we resent it and try and live our lives to ignore reality as much as possible (Wizard's First Rule).

As an asside, (my parents were both teachers, and I taught "gifted students" so I'm talking from an authoritative position here.) There are two types of intelligence. There is that which is essentially functional autism. Very strong in one area and weak in others. Most of the time this is strong in math or physics and bad at physical stuff, but it can manifest it in other ways. In fact I always taught autistic kids that they were just incredibly inteliigent and just had to learn how to become marginally functional in their weak areas so that they could live in the world. (Bil Gates is a perfect example of a functional autistic) Then there are the super-intelligents as I call them. There are far fewer of these. They're the ones where they are not weak in anything and show a wide range of abilities that are greater than others. These are the ones that are students of reality. They take normal abilities and use the understanding of physics to be much better athletically, and math to be better at computers, etc.

Example of how anyone can be a student of realilty: I can teach ANYONE to drive standard transmission cars. Why? Because I understand the physics of what is happening in the clutch. Does that require that they know the physics of how the clutch works? No, it only requires them to recognize the feel of what's happening. (i.e. the creap when the clutch is very slowly engaged without gas, and to use that recognition to apply power at that specific point) I've taught autistic people with no physical ability at all, women that swore that they would never learn, and even a child with a learning disability (don't you just love my political correctness) in a go-cart. This isn't that I have any special tallent to teach (on the contrary I'm a very bad teacher because most everything comes automatically to me), it's because recognizing reality is not a difficult thing. Most people just choose not to do it. And the less intelligent you are, the more likely you are to believe others without questioning them, and thus the less likely you are to dare to recognize reality and go against the grain.

Rand's characters are briliant because of their recognition of reality, not because they are brilliant people. They take what they are good at (Dagney isn't especially good at anything persay, only good at recognizing reality and working hard) and work hard and use reality to move forward. As a result they met with success. However, as Ayn Rand put it, "why would I write a novel about the mediocre? Art is about exhuting greatness, about studying what it is to be great and telling the world that there is a better way, something to aspire to." So of course her core characters (Galt and Roark in the two main novels) are great men because to be anything else would be an assult to her own beliefs.

Incidently if you would like to read something along the same lines as Rand, although fantasy novels, check out Terry Goodkind. Start with Wizard's First Rule. It's fantastic. They get a little weaker, but then Faith of the Fallen is a tour-de-force that will move you like Rand never could (and lift you up instead of depressing you like Rand often can). If you want to learn more about objectivism, check out www.terrygoodkind.com and read the interviews and essays from Terry Goodkind, it's a good begining.

BTW, never appolgize for your thoughts, espeically when the obviously come from a very deep and careful process based on a wonderful fundamental understanding. (your last sentence... I know it isn't really hugely an appology, just close ) There's no reason to appologize for saying what you believe so long as you are willing to change if you're proven wrong (which you're not being proven wrong here) I always say Dare to be Great. To do so, the first step is to be completely and utterly wrong publically and have to fix your mistake. It's only through allowing yourself to be wrong without appology that you can dare to act and reach greatness.
on Dec 06, 2004
There's no reason to apologize for saying what you believe so long as you are willing to change if you're proven wrong


Nice article, and I agree with most everything you wrote. I'm only picking this one part to quote because it perfectly points out what annoys me most about most people.

If you start paying attention, you'll notice that most people don't have the ability to: admit (even to themselves) that they're wrong about something they believe (subjective), admit that they just don't know something. It's because of the fact that I love to argue (even people think argue is such a harsh word), that I've tried really hard in life to become good at these two things. You said it pretty well:

It's only through allowing yourself to be wrong without apology that you can dare to act and reach greatness.


I'm not trying to "reach greatness" really, but I sure would like to know the "truth of it all." I really want what I "believe" about certain things to be as close to the absolute truth as possible. The first step in this quest is learning the ability to change your mind, and admit when you're just wrong about certain things.

This, of course, almost forces me to be agnostic when it comes to religious beliefs.

(FYI, Word just told me there’s just one “p” in apology)
on Dec 06, 2004
There's no reason to apologize for saying what you believe so long as you are willing to change if you're proven wrong


Nice article, and I agree with most everything you wrote. I'm only picking this one part to quote because it perfectly points out what annoys me most about most people.

If you start paying attention, you'll notice that most people don't have the ability to: admit (even to themselves) that they're wrong about something they believe (subjective), admit that they just don't know something. It's because of the fact that I love to argue (even people think argue is such a harsh word), that I've tried really hard in life to become good at these two things.


I agree. It's incredibly frustrating.

Thanks for your post! But I read back through the article, and picked out another sentence that I was wondering if you caould explain to me:

The moment you do either, it is the moral requirement of those that believe in truth to shout down the person that is wrong, and to prevent them from acting on their wrong assumption if anyone other than the person themselves is going to be hurt by it.


I'm not sure I quite understand why this is true. It doesn't even seem very objectivist to me. The way I see it, this type of moral requirement (obligation) to society doesn't exist. See, I've also done a lot of studying about postitive vs. negative moral obligations (postive requires action, negative reuires inaction), and it seems to me that Rand's position would be more along the lines of postive MOs don't exist. I actually don't know (or care that much) what her view is, I'm just unclear on why this statement is true.

on Dec 07, 2004
It isn't a societial moral obligation. It's an obligation to yourself as a free person to fight and keep fighting and make sure that lies, socialism and religion (two forms of lies) never win. By doing nothing and allowing the lies to be repeated and acted upon, you harm yourself because once those ideas become mainstream, others will be able to act upon it and harm you either by taking away your freedom, or by enslaving you to a false ideal.

Take your pick as to the headline of the day on CNN that proves this point.

Another one: There was a guy and a little girl shot on a bus in Toronto. Everyone just sat there (over 40 people) while this guy was getting beaten up in the back of the bus and finally got away and was shot in the back while trying to flee the bus and no one did anything.

To be clear, the people on the bus had no obligation to society as a whole, or to the man that was fleeing. They had an obligation to themselves to destroy the evil of the men that thought that they have the right and the power to harm another simply because they want to. And not only did they do nothing, but they didn't bother to hang around to tell the police anything either. By doing nothing, you let evil win, and sooner or later it hurts you. Conversely, if the people on the bus had attacked the men that were beating the man, some of them might have gotten hurt, but make no mistake, others planning the same thing would think twice. And if it hapened every time something like this occured, sooner rather than later, it wouldn't be happening at all. Thus by acting in enlightened self-interest, and doing so agreesively and consistantly, you can eliminate a threat that can become much more powerful when you do nothing.

This is the "Beautiful Mind" principle. Enlightened selfishness. If you take the long view, you have to act to prevent evil from affecting you. It's far easier to act immediately then wait until it's too late and you have to start a revolution.

This is also the concept that most objectivists and libertarians don't understand and thus why they will never rule and thus will never be free. (unless they pull another American Revolution, because they're the ones that start revolutions and then let it flounder again and again until the next revolution) There is no contradiction in acting in your own self-interest, even if it happens to coincide with the values of a socialist every once and a while. It's purely conincidental.
on Dec 07, 2004
Splateaux: Dead on! Dare to be wrong, and then take being wrong like a man (sorry women, you get the idea) and then dare to be wrong again. The more you're wrong, the less and less you'll be wrong in the future, so long as you learn from your mistakes. But if you refuse to act at all, you have no chance of being right EVER.
on Dec 07, 2004
Oh, okay. That's different than what I thought you were trying to say. But now I'm not even really sure why an obligation to yourself exists. Do you think suicide is immoral? I don't. I think acting in self-interest is a choice. In addition, I don't see why that translates into a moral obligation to stop others from expressing things that aren't the truth. If you don't let it affect you and you still know the truth, does it really even harm you? \

Not that I'm disagreeing with you. I'm trying to decide what I think (and yes, I realize that that's probably too subjective for your taste;)). Which leads me to something you kind of responded to before, but I'm still not really clear on it.

How can we ever expect anyone to know the truth about important issues? If you and I both knew the truth about this, I wouldn't be asking you so many questions. And if everyone knew the truth about all political issues, there wouldn't be different parties.

I tend to see opinions not necessarily as based on things that aren't true, but as statements of "truth" based on varying experiences and preferences. I think people tend to make different links to morality, and it's only a question of which way is actually moral. I'm not sure people can really always know that.

Just wondering. Thanks.
on Dec 09, 2004
Morality is a very simple concept. Non contradiction + acting for the betterment of yourself (the second is arrived at because acting for the betterment of yourself is the only non-contradictory approach to life, unlike Socialism that requires you to be a hippocrite)

It is a moral obligation for yourself to act to better your life so long as you don't harm another. If you do not, then you are embracing death and are the same as a socalist or someone that believes in God (i.e. at the most, a zero). You have a choice in life. Unlike religion that says the best you can be is a zero. (I.e. not bad) You can be good. It is your obligation to act to make yourself good, to be better than you were before. Any action that contradicts that imparitive, is by nature immoral. By not acting to ensure that your life is not later threatened by an even more powerful force than it is today, is an immoral act becasue you are choosing to risk your life later for the sake of not acting today. It's a contradiction, it's lazy and it's illogical. (logic is the basis for all reational thought) Further, if you ignore it today, then you will likely ignore it tomorrow too, and the next day, until one day it is not ignorable and you're dead. Thus the only conclusion of ignoring the problem is death, unless you happen to get lucky and someone else takes responsiblity and does something, which of course is wanting something for nothing, which is a contradiction in terms and thus impossible. (i.e. you must put energy in, to get energy out) Sure you can get lucky and someone else will deal with it, but eventually there will be no one else to deal with whatever it is that comes up, and you'll be dead.)

How do you regonize the truth, and find the unverisal truth? Read "Introduction to Objectivist Episimology". It is very clear about this. To some it up, it is possible to do a mathematical proof that can be proven to be true in all cases. This means that the mathematical proof is universal, and will never, ever be proven wrong. It may be extended, but it will never be wrong.

The same is possible with a logical proof. Using a logical construct that not-coincidently looks very much like a mathematical proof, you can show that something will always be true. This is required for there to be a definition to be made. (i.e. a new word or meaning for a word to be created). While Rand talks more about the process of arriving at the truth, defining it and integrating it into your knowledge, and how that works, this is the basis of the assumption of the book and she outlines it in more detail in the notes that follow the most recent revision. Further, Aristotle's work on Logical proofs is excellent, and Maslo (can never spell his name) also did work on the subject while working on his "hierarchy of needs".

Here's an example: The defintion of human is "rational animal". Why? Because there is no other defintion of human that has ever been created that doesn't include anything other than humans and at the same time doesn't exclude some humans. (I would refine it to be "Possibly Rational Animal" but that would be showing my distain for most of the world's population.) While the definition of human may be refined (i.e. mine) the original defintion will NEVER be proven wrong, it will only become less specific than the current defintion.

An intersting example of a mistake in definition because of ignorance and assumption that I think is going to be corrected is "analog" (I'm writing up this as an article on my blog).

Typically Analog (don't bother with the dictionary.com defintion, it means nothing, horrible horrible proof that even the people writting the dictionaries don't have a clue about english and grammar and what it is to define a word) is refered to as a biological or "fuzzy" process. When contrasted to digital, we would say that they are opposites, or very significantly different. For instance, analog TV uses a wave that is translated directly into an image. Whereas digital breaks the image into discrete bits and then transmits it using waves, and it is then converted (either directly in the case of LCD, or through a translator in the case of CRT) into a viewable image.

What we're now finding is that every "analog" event in the universe is actually composed of so many digital events that the human brain processes it as a discrete non-separable item to be taken as a whole instead of it's digital representation. (i.e. the wave is made up of atoms etc. which travel in a specific way. Each atom and more specifically the particles that make up the atom have a 0 or 1 choice at every point, and thus are zillions of discreate digital events.

Whether we consider it separately as we do with digital TV and do it intentionally, or the universe does it for us, analog is not analog, it is digital, the human brain just takes it as a whole when it is not. So the definition as it currently stands is wrong, and needs to be redone. This is a case where definition failed, but only through human ignorance. (well and then there is dictionary.com)

Socialists and subjectivists (one and the same most of the time because you cannot be a socalist without either being a hypocrite to whatever view you hold on truth, or by being a subjetivist (hypocrite for other reasons)) will argue that it's specifically this ignorance of humans that prevents us from ever knowing for sure. However, that is patently false. For this assertion to be true, then there would have to be no case where humans could know for sure. Mathematical proofs disprove the subjectivist assertion, thus it is wrong. However, it is REALLY HARD to find the TRUTH, and thus subjectivism is just another form of laziness for the most part. It's also an excellent way to void conflict....

So since the subjectivist assertion can be proven wrong very easily, and the objective assertion that there is unviersal truth and we can know it, can be proven to be true very easily (same example) we have our answer.

And as a 12 year old physics student did for her PHd. she proved that if you could know the state of every atom, particle etc. in the universe at a specific instant in time, you could know the future of the universe from that point on if you understood completely every interaction of particles that there are. The only reason we can't do this now is because of lack of computer power and an ignorance in quantum mechanics that I have every reason to believe based on past evidence, will be overcome, because everything in the universe is knowable through reason and logic. (and the arguement that it would be irrelivent because it would take longer to process the next state than it took for the next state to happen is false too, just look at the experiments recently to do with accelerating light to 300x or more faster than the "speed of light" (all supporting, not disproving E=mc2 btw)

on Dec 09, 2004
It is a moral obligation for yourself to act to better your life so long as you don't harm another. If you do not, then you are embracing death and are the same as a socalist or someone that believes in God (i.e. at the most, a zero). You have a choice in life. Unlike religion that says the best you can be is a zero. (I.e. not bad) You can be good. It is your obligation to act to make yourself good, to be better than you were before. Any action that contradicts that imparitive, is by nature immoral. By not acting to ensure that your life is not later threatened by an even more powerful force than it is today, is an immoral act becasue you are choosing to risk your life later for the sake of not acting today. It's a contradiction, it's lazy and it's illogical. (logic is the basis for all reational thought) Further, if you ignore it today, then you will likely ignore it tomorrow too, and the next day, until one day it is not ignorable and you're dead. Thus the only conclusion of ignoring the problem is death, unless you happen to get lucky and someone else takes responsiblity and does something, which of course is wanting something for nothing, which is a contradiction in terms and thus impossible. (i.e. you must put energy in, to get energy out) Sure you can get lucky and someone else will deal with it, but eventually there will be no one else to deal with whatever it is that comes up, and you'll be dead.)


This seems to be a contradiction to me, which means one of your premises can't exist. Morality is based on choice, and is only possible with choice. I'm assuming you agree to this because objectivism strongly supports it and because I see no reason why that isn't true. At that point, I don't think people can have any sort of moral obligation to take an action if it is not their choice. So even if living actually benefits the person, as does improving themselves, if a person isn't choosing to live, they can't have a moral obligation to preserve life. Not everyone wants to live. Therefore, a categorical moral obligation to protect your own life can't exist.
on Dec 10, 2004
Technically there is no such thing as truth OR objectivity, as far as our ability to percieve and express goes. Everything filters through our senses, experiences, and ideals; even if it is our own, personal, subjective definition of objectivity.

If I believe in an atheistic, no-God theory of creation, it is still belief. No scientist that deserves the title can ever say something doesn't exist, unless they have access to the entirety of all knowledge. There's also no way I can personally re-create and verify the hundreds of years of scientific discovery that our modern ideas are based on. If I could, the conclusions, the eventual "Laws" I come up with, are based on my limitation perception to the universe as a whole.

"What goes up must come down" breaks down in the absence of gravity. All scientific law may at some point, so even what we deem to be "laws", aren't. I can't say any conclusion I come to is "Truth", since I don't have the ability to test it universally. Maybe a given perception is more reliable in a given way in a given place and time, but that is always going ot be an assumption, and there's nothing objective about assumption.

It's all subjective. "Truth" is simply subjective assumption that may or may not prove to be reliable. Someone reads the bible and believes, another reads textbooks and believes. Still others believe a little of both. I'm hedging my bets, personally ...

It's the same for politics or phone companies or abortion or anything else. In the end, we have to decide what we think is best now at this place and at this time. Most founding fathers believed devoutly that slavery was a great wrong, and yet they chose not to abolish it. Sometimes "right" isn't "right", even if it is "right". It's all subjective.
on Dec 10, 2004
Technically there is no such thing as truth OR objectivity, as far as our ability to percieve and express goes. Everything filters through our senses, experiences, and ideals; even if it is our own, personal, subjective definition of objectivity.


Then why is your statement true? That's the thing about moral relativism, or any kind of relativism. It sounds great until you realize two things. First, its self defeating. If there are no universal truths, then relativism isn't a universal truth. Second, it completely destroys the concept of moral accountability and morality in general by justifying atrocities (i.e. Hitler killing people was justified because his morals said it was right). At that point, it destoys everything that morality is based on- life, human worth, whatever.
on Dec 10, 2004
Molly:

Um, but the only valid measure for one's life is how they LIVE, not how they die. If you choose to die, then you are by definition acting in an evil fashion (hence my comment about acting like a socialist...)

So there isn't any contradiction. The value judgement that I made is a universal one that is based on non-contradiction. (and is erroniously why some Objectivists have a hate-on for gays... more on that later)

Yes, you always have a choice, and it's your choice to make. However those choices are good or evil. Thus by making the wrong choice objectively, or making no choice at all to avoid having to do the hard thing for whatever reason, is definately and objectively evil. Simply because you have a choice, does not mean that you don't have an obligation to yourself to act morally (and non-contradictorly). That's the key to choice. Yes, you have a choice, and that's volition. And those choices define if you are good or evil based on the results of those actions (not the intent, the action, the intent is irrelivent to the result. It doesn't matter if you are attempting to save someone, if you kill them in the process where they might have lived, you're still guilty of murder.) By stating that someone has a moral obligation to themselves to act in a good manner, you are saying that there is value in acting for good, not evil, and that acting for evil is a negative value. Just because someone has choice, doesn't mean that they're actions must always be moral simply because they made that choice. (this is the mistake that Neitche (damn I can't spell) made, and why he's dead wrong.)
on Dec 11, 2004
And those choices define if you are good or evil based on the results of those actions (not the intent, the action, the intent is irrelivent to the result. It doesn't matter if you are attempting to save someone, if you kill them in the process where they might have lived, you're still guilty of murder.)


Wow, I definitely disagree with this. I can sort of buy the choice/obligation stuff. Like, I can understand how the choice would be immoral, and I'm not sure if I agree that it's an obligation. But I'm OK with it.

I do, however, have a problem with the intent vs. ends argument. The only way we can ever determine the morality of an action is by the intent!!! In order to classify an action as moral or immoral, we have to look at the moral end we intend to achieve. By your logic, a man who intends to kill another man but fails is still moral, whereas a man who accidentally kills someone is immoral. How does that make sense at all, even intuitively, if not logically? Sure, the ends of previous moral or immoral actions can be taken into account by another person in a later situation, so its not like we completely ignore empirical ends. Those are just taken into account by the individual before performing the action, thereby becoming part of the intended end. Why do we hold individuals morally culpable for mistakes, but not intent? Your theory says that we can never classify an action as moral or immoral until after it already happens. We can't make the categorical statement that pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger is immoral because we don't know the outcome of every situation in which that happens. If the shooter misses and the victim live, the shooter is still moral. But if a random nice guy is trying to save someone with CPR and kills him instead, he's now immoral. So we can never make the categorical statement that trying to save a life is moral either because the outcome may be bad. There can be no morality without intent because morality (as I've already stated) is based on choice. Intent factors in choice, but results don't. We don't hold humans morally culpable for being human of for needing to eat or for other such things that we have no control over. Likewise, we don't hold them morally culpable for unintended ends of their actions, as they also have no control over those.
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