A blog on objective thought in today's irrational, subjective world tackling some of the hardest questions of existence using reason and logic.
Published on November 27, 2004 By John Galt In Philosophy
Lately I’ve been watching as people get more and more upset and argumentative fighting over who’s right, democrats or republicans. I’ve also been watching so many other arguments to the point of stupidity about which cell phone system is better… All of it has a common thread. There is a continual “that’s just my opinion, I could be wrong” implied corollary to everything everyone says but at the same time, the division between people because of the arguments is surreal. The PC attitude has accomplished one thing in its now fully developed stage of life: The disenfranchisement of the entire western civilization.

Why? Because people are arguing about subjective beliefs. To put it another way, 2000 years ago, this would have been about whos god was kewler, not about which moron for president should run the country. We’re witnessing the new religious wars. Everyone entitled to their own opinion regardless of if they have facts to back it up, and everyone joining together making cliques just like junior high. If you agree, great, come be part of my clan (religious sect), if you don’t, well I can’t tell you you’re wrong, but I don’t want to talk to you any more.

I have news people: Bush and Kerry were equally bad for the country and equally wrong in their position (not that you could actually tell the difference, since they were just spouting whatever polls showed would score them points). The reason why they were both wrong? Subjectivity.

There are three types of statements. Preference, subjective and objective. Preference is (hopefully) based on the objective evidence. (I.e. I prefer this car because it has just as good gas mileage as that one, but has more horsepower.) Often preference is based on values. (I value horsepower over comfort, thus the fact that the rid isn’t as smooth doesn’t matter to me). Value is based on experience, which is hopefully based on objective results assimilated into one’s memory to form a whole.

Objective statements are those that communicate scientific results. These are statements that given all of the current knowledge are confirmed to be true. In the case of logic arguments, these can be said to always be true because of a logical proof that demonstrates that there is no possible contradiction in the statement. If it is a mathematical argument that you’re conveying, then it can also always be true. (i.e. must always be true, to have any mathematical value)

Subjective statements are “I feel this” or “I have faith that” which have no objective backing or are based on objective information that does not support the claim. I’m sure you can come up with lots of examples of both Kerry and Bush doing this. They do it on a regular basis. Generally they both trot out studies done, that have little or nothing to do with the topic and use it as proof that they’re approach is better than whatever failed before. My personal favourite example of this is the US and Canadian food guide. The food guide is based on many studies, but the ones that interest me the most is what got us the “protein is as bad as candy” deal. The funny thing is that some Master’s degree student wanted to get his masters, so he cooked up a study to prove his point that protein was bad for your kidneys. He took < 100 people and gave them lots of protein and others very low protein. ‘Lo and behold at the end of the study, the people taking protein had kidney problems more often than those that didn’t. Thus the food guide was born and the fattening of America began. No one bothered to question a study that was done specifically to prove a subjective conclusion. No one bothered to say, “wait a minute, you don’t create a study to prove a point, you create a study to try and disprove it.” No one said “WAIT! Be objective!” Turns out that the people in the study all had kidney disease and as a result of making their kidneys work harder (protein takes more effort for your kidneys to digest) their weak kidneys failed more often. (Go figure) End result? >40% of the American population is obese because one guy decided that he was right without any objective proof, and created a study to prove it. Every study (there has been two, because no one bothered to think the guy could have been wrong) since has proven that protein has absolutely no negative effect on healthy kidneys and when taken in correct proportion (1/3 of your diet should be protein, 1/3 fat and 1/3 carbohydrates) is actually beneficial to your kidneys (don’t get me started on Atkins).

The end result of all subjective statements is negative. They destroy, they never create. People are wrong in their opinions based on feelings almost always (sometimes they get really lucky, but it’s more like winning the lottery odds than anything) and the result of acting on wrong assumptions is always negative.

For instance, say I made an assumption that cocaine was ok for me because all of my friends on it seemed healthy and happy. (And I hadn’t seen the f*ck up that their lives had been outside of the front that they put on) I would then act on this and start taking cocaine, and completely destroy my life, my children’s lives and everyone else’s lives. Why, because I decided to create a preference based on a subjective assumption instead of objective fact.

It also results in arguments that can only be resolved when someone brings in objective fact. (You know, the guy at the party that you all jumped all over, because he pointed out reality to you) The end result is statements like “you’re both right” (impossible) or “Well you’re entitled to your opinion, I don’t agree.” Little tip for you: If you hear either of these statements, run, run as fast as you can. They are your tip off of a subjective argument that can only lead to the horrible separation that you saw between democrats and republicans, and you see between Protestants and Catholics.

First let’s take apart these statements. “You’re both right”. What exactly does this mean? It means that two opposing views on the same topic are correct. To put it another way, A is A but it’s also B. First law of logic. A is A. It cannot be B, it cannot be C or anything else. If A becomes B then it is something else, and it is no longer A. Thus it is impossible to have two correct answers to the same question. There are only three possible results to any disagreement. Either you’re right, or they are right, or you’re both wrong. This kind of thinking (you’re both right) is endemic in the day and age post Kant, and post Communism. It came from Kant stating that you can never know the truth, so everything is subjective and you’re always wrong, and so is everyone else. Communism was the bastard child of Kant, begat by Marx and Ingles, as a result of this assertion that is very tasty at first blush. It is based on the premise that if both of us are wrong, then how can we measure which is a better position? Communism’s answer is that the will of the majority (society, socialism) is always the better position. The end result was 50 million dead in the USSR and millions of Jews dead to the National Socialist Party of Germany (Nazi). And make no mistake, all of these dead isn’t as a result of the assertion that society is always more important, that’s just the nasty side effect. It’s the base position that there is no truth, therefore you’re wrong that caused these massacres.

“Well you’re entitled to your opinion”. What does this mean? Well to start, let’s get to the implicit start of this sentence. “I think I’m right, but you’re entitled to your opinion.” Makes it much clearer eh? If you believe you’re right, then the other guy MUST by definition be wrong. Are you entitled to be wrong and continue to hold that wrong opinion? Sure, so long as you don’t communicate it, and don’t act on it. The moment you do either, it is the moral requirement of those that believe in truth to shout down the person that is wrong, and to prevent them from acting on their wrong assumption if anyone other than the person themselves is going to be hurt by it. (i.e. shouting down terrorists when they spout their crap, and killing them dead when they decide they want to be a martyr and kill a whole pile of people with a suicide bomb) So what you’re really saying is “you’re wrong, and I know it, but I’m not going to do anything about it.” Or “I think you’re wrong, but I don’t believe in myself enough to stand up for what I believe in, and thus will not defend my position.” In the former, the apropos statement “The price of freedom is eternal vigilance” (never said by Churchill, simply a really good para-phrase, but such is most quotes) In the later, you don’t have the belief in one’s self to even stand up for what you believe in. Fortunately, most of the time it’s the former, not the later.

Notice the key here. There is no objectivity. Objectively, we can state that there is truth. Why? Because the statement “There is no such thing as truth” (often used by subjectivists) can only be true if it is in contradiction with itself. And then you’ll get the logical second response… “There is only one truth: There is no truth”, which of course is creating a contradiction in and of itself. Further we can state objectively that socialism can only ever lead to death. (any form of it, “the third way” or otherwise) Why? Because it’s based on a contradictory statement to start with. It relies on individuals sacrificing themselves for the greater good, which if people did so, would result in the destruction of society because all of the individuals would be dead. And if they don’t (like now) then they are hypocrites and anti-society be definition. Thus we can absolutely and completely state that socialism in any form is wrong. And start to find the right way.

In an objective argument, the only loyalty of anyone in the argument is to find the truth. It isn’t about ego and “being right” it is about finding the truth so that you can better your own life with the knowledge. (and we all know just how much knowing the number of moles in a in a grain is going to make our lives better…(chemistry)) Hence the term objective. There is no “point of view”, there is no “balance” and there is no “I am right.” There is only these are the facts, and here is the non-contradictory result. You may be right because you are the one to state it, but you’re simply a messenger of the truth, and thus do not have any value in that truth. (Rather humbling eh? Keep that in mind the next time you tell that guy that buds into the argument you’re having and points out the truth to you, that he’s arrogant) You can see the folly of the other way by looking at our adversarial system of justice as it stands now. It is no longer about finding the truth, it is about selling your position to the jury. The arguers of the case (messengers of truth) thus become more important than the truth that they are supposed to be presenting. (arrogance) Hence the failure of our (in)justice system as it stands now.

In a world where the highest value is truth, not opinion, where preference is based on fact and values based on those same facts there is no disenfranchised because we are all one under TRUTH. It is time that the world drop subjectivity and acknowledge the evil of the concept and work to stamp it out. It will take a long time. We have to change the learned behaviour of an entire world. We have to start by banishing socialism to the pit of hell (ironic from someone that knows objectively that there is no god eh?) where it came from, and then work backwards from there. It’s time to embrace the values of the renaissance, and the values of Aristotle again, and come back into the light, instead of continuing to crawl inexorably into the shadow that is ignorance created by the belief that you can never know anything, and you’ll always be wrong.

Then and only then can we come together as individuals with a common cause, to learn what it is to be part of a brother/sisterhood working on a common goal, with a common purpose: Truth. Truth is the destroyer and the creator. It destroys the evil of lies and liars. It creates freedom, it creates everything around us. It ties us together, it allows us to move forward. It educates us, and it improves our lives if we allow it to. It’s time to believe in truth again!

Comments (Page 2)
3 Pages1 2 3 
on Dec 11, 2004
BakerStreet:

I happen to be in a bad mood because of an article about a girl that was raped by her father and then not only didn't hate him for it afterwards but lives with the man and cares for him. It made my blood boil to see someone make such an anti-life choice based on ignorance (religion). That she gets to make stupid decisions like that is a good thing, but man....

Hence I'm going to rip apart everything you said and show you the contradictions. You'll no doubt ignore them like most relativist/socialist people that like to keep their heads just as far in the sand as the religious right.... but hey, I'm in a mood.

Technically there is no such thing as truth OR objectivity, as far as our ability to percieve and express goes. Everything filters through our senses, experiences, and ideals; even if it is our own, personal, subjective definition of objectivity.

1. You're statement is in contradiction. For it to be true then there has to be such a thing as truth. That truth would be that there is no such thing as truth. Hence since your statements contradict eachother, you're WRONG.
2. Objectivity does exist. It's called Logic. Go look up what a mathematical proof is. It's always true regardless of the perspective of the viewer. All physics will eventually be proven in the same manner because all physics is based on math, and all mathematical formulas if true can be proven to always be true 100% of the time. (there's even a proof for that assertion if you want to go look it up.) Since I have provided you with an example that contradictions your assertion that there is no such thing as objectivity, you're WRONG.
3. Everything does not filter through our senses. Pure thought, MATHEMATICS, LOGIC does not involve any of our senses. It is PURELY the realm of the brain and only gets expressed through the senses after it is COMPLETE. Thus since you said EVERYTHING. You're wrong again, because I just gave you two examples where it isn't true.

Wow, 3 strikes in the first paragraph.... next!

If I believe in an atheistic, no-God theory of creation, it is still belief. No scientist that deserves the title can ever say something doesn't exist, unless they have access to the entirety of all knowledge.

1. Scientists can say that in this reality that something is impossible. Why? Because they have a direct contradiction to the assertion. Thus they can disprove the positive. In this case, it is easy to disprove the existence of god, and disprove creation. Why? Because the existence of god would create a paradox (I'll save this proof for a later article, but it's quite simple) and there is no such thing as a paradox (contradiction) in the universe because the universe would destroy itself if there ever was one.
2. Creation theory can be disproven because it asserts a very specific time line. Using multiple forms of dating including carbon dating, quantum dating, and the speed of light through a vaccum and the distance of objects in space, we can show that the universe is absolutely and irrevicably, much much much much much older than the time line provided in the bible for creationism. Thus it's wrong. Further the chain of events outlined in Genesis (depending on which version in chapter 1 or 2 you listen to there are mutliple wrong orders) are in the wrong order for it to work at all if you take creationism to be metaphorical. (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/) Thus creationism is wrong.
3. Since I can prove without a doubt that God doesn't exist and can't possibly exist in the universe, and that creationism in all forms is incorrect, I can say conclusively that there is no God and that creationism is a lie believed by millions of people around the world sold by a group of liers that completely fabricated the old and new testiments (at different times by different people but each successive generation of preachers have participated in the cover up). If you want to get into this, I'll show you the contradicting evidence that shows that the bible is fiction, and that it was created by, in the case of the new testiment, a woman hater named Constantine. (yes Devinci code is actually based on fact)

3 more strikes! By the time I'm done we'll have played the entire game and I'll have pitched a no hitter!!!


There's also no way I can personally re-create and verify the hundreds of years of scientific discovery that our modern ideas are based on. If I could, the conclusions, the eventual "Laws" I come up with, are based on my limitation perception to the universe as a whole.

Actually you're wrong. As a mentioned, a 12 year old proves you wrong. If you can figure out all of the rules of the universe, and capture the exact state of every particle in the universe at a given instant, you can tell exactly how the rest of time will unfold exactly. Conversely, you can use that data to roll back from that point to the beginning of this universe and know exactly the state of the universe at every instant preceeding this one. Since the problem of knowing all of the rules of the universe is a solveable one, and the ability to know the exact state of every particle in the universe is a mechanical one only requiring more computing power than we currently have, this is an enevitabilty.


"What goes up must come down" breaks down in the absence of gravity. All scientific law may at some point, so even what we deem to be "laws", aren't.

This isn't a scientific or mathmetical proof. It's a bastardization by people with limited education that couldn't understand what Newton actually wrote and thus came up with a pathetic statement that is irrational and overly simplified thus missing the point of what newton actually said. All this shows is that stupid people are ignorant and aren't capable of making universal truths because the first thing they don't know is what is a lie or simplification. Now, if on the other hand you were to take Newton's actual law of gravity you would recognize that it is quite specific and uses the following calculation: g = (m1Xm2) / r2 where m1 = the mass of the first object, m2 = the mass of the second object, and r2 = the distance between the objects squared. Thus in the presence of mass, there will be gravity and it will be inversely proportional to the distance from the objects on a logarithmic scale (damn I can't spell again) and will act on the two masses involved or any other mass that is entered into it. Since there is mass in the universe there is always gravity, no matter how small, so the simplification is actually true, it would just take a VERY VERY VERY VERY long time to come true, hence why stupid people believe that it is false. This is grade 9 physics. And guess what? It has never, and will never in this universe be proven wrong because it is very specific about the criteria for it to be correct.

Einstien then refined it in his theory of general relativity (you won't have a chance of understanding it if I was to explain it to you, since most physicists have a hard time with it, and you just made that stupid statement about "what goes up, must come down"...

I can't say any conclusion I come to is "Truth", since I don't have the ability to test it universally.

Actually you do using a mathematical proof. (everything comes down to math, even human interaction) and the human analog of math, which is called logic, which also has proofs that prove a logical statement to always be true. Thus you're wrong again.

Maybe a given perception is more reliable in a given way in a given place and time, but that is always going ot be an assumption, and there's nothing objective about assumption.

If this were true, then you would never be able to comprehend anything that was said because you would have to assume that the definitions of words changed regularily. Fortunately you're wrong again, and words always mean the same things (or have new definitions added to them) as they did before and thus you have a basis for interaction with other human beings. This is called defiinition and it is the 3rd stage of all learning.... unfortunately you were never taught this obviously, and thus you believe crap like this that is taught by others that didn't learn the basic principles of knowledge either and thus perpetuate this BS.... thank you Emanuel Kant for destroying the ability to reason in human beings!


It's all subjective. "Truth" is simply subjective assumption that may or may not prove to be reliable. Someone reads the bible and believes, another reads textbooks and believes. Still others believe a little of both. I'm hedging my bets, personally ...

Read above. I've already proven this wrong. It's getting tedious....

It's the same for politics or phone companies or abortion or anything else. In the end, we have to decide what we think is best now at this place and at this time. Most founding fathers believed devoutly that slavery was a great wrong, and yet they chose not to abolish it. Sometimes "right" isn't "right", even if it is "right". It's all subjective.

That's a stupid example. The founding fathers (some of them) knew it was wrong. But being pragmatists (not objectivists) they realized that they would never get their little revolt off of the ground without the support of the rich southern cotton farmers that were rich because they had slaves and would never agree to a nation that abolished that which made them rich. Thus they aquiessed and underminded what they knew to be a universal truth (read Ben Franklin's autobiography, this is all covered in it) End result? More death in the name of the civil war all because they ignored the truth in the first place and let someone else deal with it later instead of making the hard decision at the time. (thus proving me point here, and to Molly)

Subjectivity is the excuse of the weak minded and lazy. It is the result of lack of education, and worse ignorance of philosophy and how to learn. The end result is the justification called subjectivity that is a convenient crutch, nothing more, and can be proven wrong as I have above easily and repeatedly. And in case your'e just going to make the excuse that you're not educated enough in this to argue with me, no subjectivist has EVER been able to argue their case against an objectivist (or an follower of Aristotle before) without the outcome being much like the Scopes trial. It's rediculous just the same as religion is, so get over it and start learing about reality. It really is quite wonderous.

Objectivism isn't about belief. It's about fact and non-contradiction. Socialism is about ignorance and laziness resulting from a false ideal. Religion and faith is about volentary ignorance and worse, volentary belief of that which is clearly and precicely been proven wrong. (socialism does the same, just justifies it differently)

So sorry, I suggest you go read some books and realize that everything you've ever been taught is wrong. The very foundation for your value system is based on a lie, and thus is evil (be you socialist or religious freak (and I define socialist and relgious freak in the widest sense of the word possible, meaning anyone that believes in any part of the ideal of either concept). Learn how to learn, learn how to think critically and then and only then will you learn how to live a non-contradictory life. It is possible, and we can use reason to overcome perspective, emotion and ignorance.

Don't mistake me. This isn't about intollerence. I am happy to accept anything you prefer or assert so long as there is no contradiction. If there is contradiction, I'll point it out and then not accept it, however you're still free to believe it, that is your right in a non-contradictory system of government. However, as soon as you act on your stupid, ill thought, contradictory ideals, I will no longer allow you to hold them, because you start harming me, and then I have the right in a non-contradictory government system to ensure that you stop harming me and others. And since harm is the only thing that can come of acting on a contradictory view, you must be stopped if you act on it. (and hence why we are living in the world we do today... people didn't listen to Churchill when he said "The Price of Freedom is Eternal Vigilence" (paraphrased, but man, it's way more elligent then how he really did say it)

I am very tollerent and indeed love to hear NEW ideas, but make no mistake, I will test them objectively, and logically as is my responsibility as a rational, good person. If you present me with something new and non-contradictory, I will be all over you like a dirty shirt learning all I can possibly learn from you because knowledge is that which makes us better than animals.

(Sarah O'Connor, if you're reading, this one's for you!)
on Dec 11, 2004

I do, however, have a problem with the intent vs. ends argument. The only way we can ever determine the morality of an action is by the intent!!!

Mind what people do, not what they say, for their actions betray a lie. (TG) Intent is irrelivent because you can never know the intent of another with any certainty. Thus it is irrelivent to everyone other than the person that acted in the first place.

In order to classify an action as moral or immoral, we have to look at the moral end we intend to achieve. By your logic, a man who intends to kill another man but fails is still moral

Well so long as he failed and didn't harm the person physically, then yes, he is moral to everyone else in the universe because they have nothing to judge him by. Thought isn't evil. It can't be evil, action can be. Since intent is a formed thought, it cannot be evil by definition.

, whereas a man who accidentally kills someone is immoral.

Yes, because they took the life. It doesn't matter that it was by mistake. That's like saying that someone that says "but I didn't mean to!" actually has an excuse. It doesn't work for your kids, and it doesn't work for someone that through stupidity and ignorance kills someone. The person's intent is irrelivent to the result and it's the result that maters. This is the same as me not caring if you believe something and don't act. So long as you don't act, I cannot judge.

How does that make sense at all, even intuitively, if not logically? Sure, the ends of previous moral or immoral actions can be taken into account by another person in a later situation, so its not like we completely ignore empirical ends.

All law is based on the principle of Mens and Actus Rea. Without both there is no crime. Actus = action, Mens = intent. And to be clear, intent is not "did you intend the consquences of your action", but "did you intend to take the action that you did, whatever the outcome."


Those are just taken into account by the individual before performing the action, thereby becoming part of the intended end. Why do we hold individuals morally culpable for mistakes, but not intent?

Because mistakes that have action effect others. Intent does not and thus is irrelivent to everyone but the person that formed the intent.

Your theory says that we can never classify an action as moral or immoral until after it already happens. We can't make the categorical statement that pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger is immoral because we don't know the outcome of every situation in which that happens.

Or it is in the process of happening. And this isn't to say that the person has to swing the bat to know that they are attempting to hit a ball. We can tell with reasonable certainty that they are going to attempt to hit a ball, if they are in the starting line up, and even more certainty when they step into the batter's box, and then with almost 100% certainty (baring lightening or something that interupts the process) when they step into the batter's box. Pre-emptive action is a completely reasonable possition.


If the shooter misses and the victim live, the shooter is still moral.

No, because they acted. That they missed is irrelivent. They took the intent that was formed, and acted in the way that they designed to act. That they were incompetent is irrelivent. They formed the itent to act (mens rea) and acted upon that intent. If they intended to just fire off a gun near someone's head and accidently killed someone because they didn't see the likely consequences, doesn't mean they are any less guilty of murder, it just means that they were stupid. The intent that they just wanted to shoot off a gun near someone's head is iirelivent to the fact that they murdered someone, the reality is that they did murder someone.

But if a random nice guy is trying to save someone with CPR and kills him instead, he's now immoral.

No, read what I wrote carefully. I said if the person would have lived anyway. And besides, even if they would have, one act doesn't make you immoral. It makes that act evil because you caused the death of another. The act was immoral, not the person. The measure of society is the act, not the intent. In this scenario society has to judge if it is worth punishing the person for their ignorance of the consequences and their mistakes or not and decide if you want to punish people for acting ernistly and failing, or not, but that isn't a question of the morality of the act, or if the act was good or evil. It's a question of what you or in this case society values more. Action and failure due to lack of information or ability with the posibility of sucess, or inaction that surely results in death. All of which isn't contradictory to what I said.


So we can never make the categorical statement that trying to save a life is moral either because the outcome may be bad. There can be no morality without intent because morality (as I've already stated) is based on choice.

Morality is not based on choice. That's a subjective position. Morality is based on good and evil, which is defined objectively and is not dependant on intent, ideal, or preference. You have the choice to act in the moral fashion, or to act in the immoral fashion. The judgement of moral versus immoral is that of life vs. death. The choice itself is neither moral or immoral, the consequences of that choice are. Hence the phrase "act morally".

Society may prefer that someone act to save a dying man because there is a chance that he will live whereas inaction guarentees his death. (i.e. the stupid compel laws that force MDs to stop at accident scenes etc., which is patently against the constitution of both Canada and the US). They may state that because of that preference to action because there is a chance of success that it will not BLAME the person that acted and failed. However, that is preference, it is not fact or objective. The objective fact is that the person is dead and that's bad, and the actions taken caused that death. Thus the actions that resulted in the negative outcome are immoral.

This is why speeding laws are so very very wrong. The act of speeding is moral by definition because there is no physical harm done to another. if you kill yourself doing it, there is immorality based on your own decision that resulted in your death, but that is your choice to be immoral. Only when you are in the process, (winding up for the pitch, waggling your ass in the batters box, taking paractice swings in the on deck circle) of harming another, is there any mens and actus rea. The mens is formed by the intent to speed, that actus formed by the action that you did not plan on as a result of your intent and action that was formed by that intent.

Yes, society likes to be lazy and make it illigal because it's a hell of a lot easier to prosecute a speeder, and "it saves lives" however, the result is still immoral.

Intent factors in choice, but results don't. We don't hold humans morally culpable for being human of for needing to eat or for other such things that we have no control over.

We have control over all of those things. That is by definition what makes us human (hence the rational part of rational animal).

Likewise, we don't hold them morally culpable for unintended ends of their actions, as they also have no control over those.

Actually they do. All results of actions are predictable. It is only laziness and ignorance that prevent us from doing so. You still fire the fool that burned down the restraunt because he didn't bother to clean out the greese catcher, even if he didn't mean to cause a fire through his stupidity.

This is the key mistake that most people make in all judgement. Since you can never know the intent of someone else with any certainty (only guess work or taking their word for it, see Dr. House MD, Tuesdays on Fox for his comment on this one) you cannot use intent for any relivent value judgement. Only action and the results of those actions can be used to pass judgement.
on Dec 12, 2004
"1. You're statement is in contradiction. For it to be true then there has to be such a thing as truth. That truth would be that there is no such thing as truth. Hence since your statements contradict eachother, you're WRONG."


Nope, and that is so because you are still assuming that something in the whole mess has to be "True". You're hung up on "knowing" and that is a crock given the obvious limitations of the prediction and observation you are trying to pull off. Don't degrade “I feel this” or “I have faith that”. All you do is logically assume and call it fact. The vast majority of "scientists" who did that 200 years ago were no doubt as misguided.

"2. Objectivity does exist. It's called Logic. Go look up what a mathematical proof is. It's always true regardless of the perspective of the viewer. All physics will eventually be proven in the same manner because all physics is based on math, and all mathematical formulas if true can be proven to always be true 100% of the time. "


Again, you are basing on assumption. Crack a dictionary and look up the word "Logic". Inference, reasoning. Logical assumptions are still ASSUMPTIONS. Assumptions aren't "truth", and they are the antithesis of objectivity, since they are based upon what you already BELIEVE to be true. You are no more sure of the things you already "know" than the inferences you derive. Look at the statement "It's always true." Is there anything as scientifically unsound as an "always" assumption?

Just because you have tested something 1 million times, doesn't mean it will work on try number 1,000,001. Look at what you say "(there's even a proof for that assertion if you want to go look it up.)". Base your certainty on someone else's certainty. You can't test an assumption eternally, so you don't KNOW it will always hold up.

3. Everything does not filter through our senses. Pure thought, MATHEMATICS, LOGIC does not involve any of our senses. It is PURELY the realm of the brain and only gets expressed through the senses after it is COMPLETE. Thus since you said EVERYTHING. You're wrong again, because I just gave you two examples where it isn't true."


Again, you'd better look up the word "Logic". Logic is just inferences based upon what we know, and we know NOTHING that doesn't filter though out senses. Someone taught you mathmatics, it wasn't genetically imprinted on your brain by the universe itself. More assumption.

"1. Scientists can say that in this reality that something is impossible. Why? Because they have a direct contradiction to the assertion."


You rely on a local contradiction to make a local observation into a universal truth. Just because you observe a so-call "fact" here, you can't prove that it will be true twenty minutes from now, or that a contradiction doesn't exist just out of the range of your limited senses. You don't build supposed truth on Uncertainty. You assume. That isn't objective in the least.

"2. Creation theory can be disproven because it asserts a very specific time line. Using multiple forms of dating including carbon dating, quantum dating, and the speed of light through a vaccum and the distance of objects in space, we can show that the universe is absolutely and irrevicably, much much much much much older than the time line provided in the bible for creationism."


absurd... You say "Creation theory can be disproven because it asserts a very specific time line. ", and then assert your own subjective view of time, the "proof" for which is also based on a teeny sliver of human observation filtered through human subjectivity.

You have no proof that that the "rules" we have now have always been or even will be in 20 minutes. To say that the decay of a particular element is a perfect predictable based upon what we know is silly, given the inability to observe such decay for any reasonable amount time or physical circumstances.
"3. Since I can prove without a doubt that God doesn't exist and can't possibly exist in the universe, and that creationism in all forms is incorrect, "


Since your small set of observations is filtered through such a grossly biased, A Priori set of "proofs", there's no need to deal with this one at all. You are basing your self-aggradizing idea of "Truth" on the falibility of subjective human observation, most of which you get second hand, so you're leaning on belief and faith like everyone else. I can't disprove your faith, but I can laugh at you for denying that it IS faith...

"Actually you're wrong. As a mentioned, a 12 year old proves you wrong. If you can figure out all of the rules of the universe, and capture the exact state of every particle in the universe at a given instant, you can tell exactly how the rest of time will unfold exactly."


Ah, so you have unlimited access to all existance. As far as "rolling back", that is the same insipid assumption that things work the same now as they did a billion years ago or will 20 minutes from now. SUBJECTIVE assumption, assumtion, assumption.

"Subjectivity is the excuse of the weak minded and lazy. It is the result of lack of education, and worse ignorance of philosophy and how to learn. "


This from the guy who relies on his narrow, man-made "rules" of the universe to devine that it is possible to know all and see all. You DEFINE subjectivity. All you can find are assumptions that other people have made before you. Since you didn't make those assumptions, you call them truth and pretend you aren't assuming. Is there anything more unscientific and fraught with faith than a statement like:

"It has never, and will never in this universe be proven wrong because it is very specific about the criteria for it to be correct."


That's no less pig-headed than any other stolidly unbendable mind in the last 10,000 years that just KNEW that what they KNEW was universal truth. You use, local, subjective truths to disprove other people proposing local, subjective truths.

I say "Technically there is no such thing as truth OR objectivity, as far as our ability to percieve and express goes."

You say that is a contradiction. Why? Because you HAVE to know that one of the arguments is universal truth. You take your standard of "truth", impose it on my statement, and call it false. Funny, huh? In your skull everything has to be true or false. That doesn't mean it has to be in mine.

You are a brain in a vat groping around with your little feelers, sniffing and listening, decifering light into subjective images of the tiniest sliver of the universe. Reread your posts full of overblown-absolutes and assumptions based upon the validity of other assumptions by people who built upon other assumptions. You feel comfortable taking your assumptions and imposing them on the expanse of space and time, most of which you have no possible way of observing?

You're using as much faith as any fundamentalist Christian.


on Dec 12, 2004
"Objectivism isn't about belief. It's about fact and non-contradiction."


Fact and non-contridiction are dreams in a universe so expansive that you have no possible way of knowing whether a contradiction somewhere, sometime exists.

"Learn how to learn, learn how to think critically and then and only then will you learn how to live a non-contradictory life."


Learn that you don't know anything, that you'll never know anything, and that nothing is definately possible or impossible. Then you'll be able to deal with NOW without being a robot programed by centuries of assumptions, be they religious or psuedo-scientific. Supposed universal truths and scientific certainty fail all the time.

The vast majority of belief and hypothesis have been rejected in time, and yet you know, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that your little handle on the universe is so neatly tied up. Either you have a great deal of FAITH in yourself, or you haven't given it much thought. As far as the track record of human assumption goes thus far, the odds are very, very slim that it's gonna pan out for ya...
on Dec 12, 2004

Deteriorata

Go placidly amid the noise and waste,
And remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
Avoid quiet and passive persons unless you are in need of sleep.
Rotate your tires.


Speak glowingly of those greater than yourself,
And heed well their advice, even though they be turkeys.
Know what to kiss and when.
Consider that two wrongs never make a right,
But that three lefts do.


Wherever possible put people on "HOLD".
Be comforted that in the face of all aridity and disillusionment,
And despite the changing fortunes of time,
There is always a big future in computer maintenance.
Remember the Pueblo.


Strive at all times to bend, fold, spindle and mutilate.
Know yourself. If you need help, call the FBI.
Exercise caution in your daily affairs,
Especially with those persons closest to you;
That lemon on your left for instance.


Be assured that a walk through the ocean of most souls,
Would scarcely get your feet wet.
Fall not in love therefore; it will stick to your face.


Carefully surrender the things of youth: birds, clean air, tuna, Taiwan,
And let not the sands of time get in your lunch.
For a good time, call 606-4311.


Take heart amid the deepening gloom that your dog
Is finally getting enough cheese;
And reflect that whatever fortunes may be your lot,
It could only be worse in Sioux City.


You are a fluke of the Universe.
You have no right to be here, and whether you can hear it or not,
The Universe is laughing behind your back.


Therefore make peace with your God whatever you conceive him to be,
Hairy Thunderer or Cosmic Muffin.


With all its hopes, dreams, promises, and urban renewal,
The world continues to deteriorate.
Give up.


                 --christopher guest

on Dec 12, 2004
yikes.   proof positive the universe dont want that information disseminated
on Dec 13, 2004
Learn that you don't know anything, that you'll never know anything, and that nothing is definately possible or impossible. Then you'll be able to deal with NOW without being a robot programed by centuries of assumptions, be they religious or psuedo-scientific. Supposed universal truths and scientific certainty fail all the time.

The vast majority of belief and hypothesis have been rejected in time, and yet you know, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that your little handle on the universe is so neatly tied up. Either you have a great deal of FAITH in yourself, or you haven't given it much thought. As far as the track record of human assumption goes thus far, the odds are very, very slim that it's gonna pan out for ya...

I'll leave you to ignorance, fear and failure... since that is the only fruit that is reaped from this belief that you have that is so very contradictory and non-sensical... (as I demonstrated and you completely ignored the evidence that proves you wrong, just as I predicted you would)

Damn I hate being right sometimes....
on Dec 13, 2004
Ok, so I can't leave it alone... stupid me....


absurd... You say "Creation theory can be disproved because it asserts a very specific time line. ", and then assert your own subjective view of time, the "proof" for which is also based on a teeny sliver of human observation filtered through human subjectivity.

You have no proof that that the "rules" we have now have always been or even will be in 20 minutes. To say that the decay of a particular element is a perfect predictable based upon what we know is silly, given the inability to observe such decay for any reasonable amount time or physical circumstances.

Actually if you bothered to read I demonstrated multiple different ways that the universe's age is absolutely verifiable from multiple tests that are completely unrelated. But as per the norm with religious freaks (and yes, I don't know that you're a religious person, but regardless of your religion or otherwise, your views are in parallel with religious freaks and thus it's largely irrelevant to the discussion if you are actually or not) that desperately want to believe the lies in the bible (or whatever else they want to believe that has no proof and can be disproved completely and utterly) and latch on to one thing... I'm surprised you didn't trot out the snail shell example about radio carbon dating.... the fraud would have been complete.

As for your "subjective view of time" BS. Time is not subjective, it is absolute based on the rules outlined by the General Theory of relativity (I guess I should have explained it to you, although it probably wouldn't have done any good). There is nothing mysterious about time, and it can be explained without the use of perspective. That's the beauty of mathematics, as I pointed out before. General Theory of relativity explains almost all of the properties of time. It does so with mathematics, and no one has ever proven any part of it wrong. They have refined it, and gone into areas that Einstein didn't bother to, or wasn't capable of doing, but they have never contradicted it. Given the specific criteria outlined in GTR you can absolutely predict time without perspective. As a result, you can also predict exactly how light will behave. And there is this neat thing called distance dating based on the constant of light. It assumes that light is a constant in a vacuum so long as it isn't affected by large gravity wells. In fact, we interestingly (not so interestingly for religious nuts) use this principle of light bending when traveling through large gravity wells and other substances all of the time, both in astrophysics and other areas. But one that most religious nuts forget about is that we can TELL when light has been bent, or sped up or slowed down through different substances. Thus we can be absolutely sure when we do our calculations on how long it took the light to get to earth, that they are correct within a factor of ~10 (and this is pessimistic). Worst case, the universe is 1.4 billion years old, not 14 billion years old. Which of course, using my little fingies, is one heck of a lot of a bigger number than ~10,000 years old....

What I should do is just read that poem and put you on pause... ignorant people that want to be ignorant and worse think that it's a virtue to be ignorant, aren't worth listening to. Because if your life is about ignorance and crawling through it with your eyes closed and your hands out praying that you don't bump into something below your hands, or worse, walk into a fire hands first, then life isn't worth living. (which then the socialists answer, "but then, your purpose becomes about sacrificing yourself for your friends and family!")

One thing you should think about: People in the middle ages thought like you do. That's why they were called the dark ages. People in Russia thought like socialists do who answer the stupidity of your base belief system. That's why 50 million of them died for your false ideal. And finally, people still think like you do. Fortunately, people like me exist, who embrace rational thought, who believe that the universe is knowable and that we will inevitably know all there is to know about the universe and reality. Hence why we have cell phones, computers, TVs, indoor plumbing, oh, and actually don't die from everything under the sun....

You know why we moved out of the dark ages into the renaissance? Because a Roman Catholic Priest discovered the original writings of Aristotle back in the 1300s and found them so magnificent that he shared them with his fellows in the Jewish community and the Muslim community. The result was the slow rebirth of humanity from its slow death caused by religion and the destruction of science and its ideals. (This is well documented fact)

Unfortunately for people like me, you use us to perpetuate your lies, and evil. If people like me just stopped and did nothing, you would die as would your evil. But the catch is that all of us have to STOP.

Yes, Ayn Rand, you were so right.

Interestingly, we are sort of stopping. IT isn't for lack of trying, but the world is running out of people like me. You drive us away, and all of our amazing inventions can only make the few remaining so much more productive. Eventually there are too many of you, and not enough of us, no matter how much we try and invent our way out of there being not enough of us. We're starting to get to this point quickly. Every time thieves steal from companies like Microsoft because they think they are "too good" and thus "not fair" to the pathetic companies that have no talent (have you loaded Real Media Player lately? Or Word Perfect Suite?) you take yet another one of us out of the picture. When a society rewards losers ("Swan", "Extreme Makeover Home Edition", "Opra and her cars", "Dr. Phil") you know that the society is in the process of collapsing. (Frank Stronach said basically this, I'm twisting it a little for my own use, but the point is still maintained).

And yes, this all comes from your view Baker....


That's no less pig-headed than any other stolidly unbendable mind in the last 10,000 years that just KNEW that what they KNEW was universal truth. You use, local, subjective truths to disprove other people proposing local, subjective truths.

There is a large difference between the 10,000 years and the assertions of "always true" that you're talking about and scientific fact. The idiots that you're talking about all made assertions based on religion and faith (faith = the voluntary belief in something that is demonstratably false) The problem is that these people's assertions were contradictory the second they said them and if the people at the time had bothered to think about them, they would have realized it, it didn't take some mystical new knowledge that they didn't have access to, to deduce the lie. And going back to my point about destroying false statements and fighting it with everything we have. In fact, in every one of those cases, people DID know that it was BS from day one. They didn't fight for the truth, and the liars won. The Greeks knew that the earth was round and that it orbited the sun. No one fought for it, when the RC church decreed that it was flat and the earth was the center of the universe, because they didn't have the courage and made the false assumption that people would see through the BS. It took a coward that published posthumously, and then one of the greatest men in history, Galileo, to stand up and point out the obvious. And to be clear, the tools were there in Greek times to observe the obvious and point out the lies of the RC church, so your assertions that things change is just bizarre. (aside from my point that you conveniently ignored that if things did change, we wouldn’t have language)

On the other hand, science is non-contradictory and reproducible every time given the same set of variables. This is the definition of scientific method. Thus given the same experiment with the same variables, you will ALWAYS get the same result. Thus it will ALWAYS be true. (And before you argue about this and say it's a false assumption, go read a little about logical proofs and mathematical proofs and educate yourself, because there is no point in me carrying on a conversation when you are arguing in ignorance.)



I can't disprove your faith, but I can laugh at you for denying that it IS faith

There's a reason why you can't disprove it (see definition of faith above for why it isn’t faith), and no one ever has disproved it in the past 50+ years since Ayn Rand first outlined it. There's a reason why no one has ever disproved Aristotle in the past 2000+ years. There's a reason why every time Aristotle thesis are rediscovered, that group of people experience a golden age. (Alexander the Great, Rome pre-Christians, the Renaissance, etc.) It's because it's true, it was true 2000 years ago, it's true today and will always be true. It is non-contradictory and unassailable. Ayn Rand simply took the scientific use and applied it to human life, society and the world around us and using that principle of non-contradiction built a solid foundation for living a TRUE life that is unassailable.

What you're asserting as assumptions, are not assumptions. They are scientific fact, built upon other scientific fact. Not the kind cooked up by PhD candidates cooking studies, the kind that survives all scrutiny for all existence.

Here's a little tidbit for you, that if you did your research you would realise that assumption and education are two different things:

Learning is based on a 4 step process.

Abstraction
Integration
Definition
Assignment (creating a word for the definition or reusing an old one unfortunately)

Our brains then use this information to form a concrete. This concrete becomes the basis for the next abstraction, integration, definition and assignment. Simply because something is a concrete, (i.e. "chair", "table") doesn't mean that it is an assumption that it is a chair. It simply means that we have aggregated the data and the reasons for why a "chair" is a "chair" and accept it at its face, because we understand the basis for it. (many people don't and just assume, but then there are people like me that understand why a chair is a chair, and it's amazing how life becomes very simple when you understand WHY everything is the way it is.) The fact still remains, even if you assume that the people before you were right and a chair is a chair, you can go back through your premise and identify the abstraction, integration, definition and assignment that happened and understand why. However, if every time we wanted to discuss an oak table, we had to go through the process of abstraction, integration, definition and assignment for "oak" and "chair" our brains wouldn't be very useful, and would get over crowded with information and we would not be able to learn more than a few basic concepts. What makes the brain so wonderful (evolution is grand!) is that it allows for the creation of a concrete that stands on it's own so that we can build on those concretes without having to redefine everything every time.

(and in what I just said you will finally understand the statement: “There is no such thing as a contradiction. If you encounter one, check your premises” (Ayn Rand))

Amazing how all of the BS that subjectivists spu is based on ignorance and laziness isn't it? Sad how subjectivism is based on a fundamental lack of understanding of how humans learn isn’t it? The thing that we do every day, for our very survival, and most of the world doesn’t even know HOW they do it. It must be terrifying to drive a car and not know why or how it works. It must be even more terrifying to go through life not knowing anything for sure because your entire life is based on guesses and taking other people’s word for it, because you don’t understand the most basic thing to understand: the process of learning.
on Dec 13, 2004
Again, you just rattle off a bunch of things claiming they are absolute, when in reality you have no possibly way of proving such outside your limited spot in the space and time. When you say:

"Time is not subjective, it is absolute based on the rules outlined by the General Theory of relativity "


It makes me chuckle. Evidently, JG the great lover of science doesn't know a THEORY from a LAW... Time is based on a theory, not the other way around, huh? My God, the ignorant self-aggradizing of the human mind. The "completeness" of Einstein's Relativity is being questioned more and more, as is the "absolute" nature of time.

OH, that's right, though. Once a SCIENTIST says something and proves it with math, John Galt here can no longer question it. It might strike him down with boils... Science is ABOUT questioning previous thought, you twit... You KNOW that time is absolute just as a 17th century Protestant KNEW those gals were witches...

It is like arguing with a fundamentalist. You KNOW what you KNOW, and there's no possible way to shake your pig-headed view that what you observe here, prove here, KNOW here is universal law. Granted, without help you don't know what is 2 inches behind your head at present, and yet you know that all the theories you get third, fourth, and 200th hand will work a million light years away or a million years in the future.

At this point I think you pretty much deserve to live in the unimaginative little hovel you've constructed out of decades or centuries-old theories, any of which could topple tommorrow. You rape your world of possibilities. Sadly, those possibilites are really there, REAL scientists accept those possibilities.

REAL science wouldn't think of denying outright the existance of something, they'd simply say that there is no proof of something's existence available. REAL science would NEVER speak in absolutes the way you do, because THEIR data is NEVER complete, given their limited ability to test hypotheses in space and time. REAL scientists don't end up looking like a horse's ass every 50 years or so when what they KNEW was an absolute gets easily overturned when new factors or new information comes to light.

Only self-important, inflexible, UNscientific know-it-alls suffer that fate.

You're not a practitioner of science, you've made it some sort of absolute god. JG's God of the Slide Rule and his Prophet Ayn Rand. Maybe you should look into Scientology, too? You keep right on thinking that you have it all licked JG. You look just like every other prayer-tent revivalist to me. You take all the flexibility out of science and make it a literalist temple. BURN THOSE THAT QUESTION AT THE STAKE!!

"Science" a'la medieval Catholicism. Humorous, but sad at the same time...
on Dec 13, 2004
I've noticed the "objective" people tend to be the most subjective people around.
on Dec 14, 2004
BakerStreet:

it is you that has not learned the difference between theory and law:

Law = Something that has been around for so long that it's veracity is taken to be true in all condisions because no one has ever been able to prove it worng.

Theory = Something that may or may not have been around as long as a law. Most of the time Theories are theories because they encapsulate many other laws and theories. Because of the complexity they rarely if ever get converted to laws. Not because they have ever been proven wrong, but because they are so complex and often are still being worked upon.

Obviously a law is always preferable to a theory. However, a theory, if well documented and follows scientific method is still true, and if you question it with objective standards you can tell if it's a complete bullsh*t thesis put out there to get a PhD or Masters or something, or if it really means something. It really isn't hard to spot fakery.

Oh the other hand, if you look at subjectivist points of view, if you aren't a hypocrit, then the only thing left would be to live in a cave with a stick to protect yourself because you couldn't ever believe anything your own eyes saw, or logic told you. In fact, logic is a dirty word for subjectivists. (hence why they either live in acidemia where it's safe and they can hold BS ideals and get away with it, or their poor people with little education for the most part)

I like indoor plumbing and not being a hypocrit along the way....

As for flexibility? I'm very flexible. If I'm wrong I"m wrong. Simply show me the contradiction and I'll admit it. However, you haven't been able to show me any contradiction and thus I"m not wrong. Further, science can be wrong, people screw up, but in general the process works very well, and every day we learn more and more about the universe, and it is enevitable that eventually we will know all that there is to know, so long as we don't let subjectivists that would question the meaning of words and mathematical proofs that are always true, and claim that they are wrong or that you just can't be sure, run the world.

Logic and reason, it is what makes us better than animals. To suggest that neither of those things means anything, and that they lie to us, is to embrace the animal and the darkness.

You go ahead and do it all you want, I'll embrace the light. Just stay out of my way, because my patience is very thin for stupid people that want to be animals. (I.e. I treat them exactly how they see themselves, which doesn't go over well, because socialists also like to be hypocrits)

on Dec 14, 2004
Wow, this topic sure has gotten heated!

You guys should hug and make up.
on Dec 14, 2004
, and it is inevitable that eventually we will know all that there is to know


I agree with most of what you've said John, but I'd have to disagree with this statement.

The only way it could be assumed that we'll know "everything" at some point, is if the amount of things that CAN be learned is currently definable. That's kind of a hard idea to put words to, but...

Let's say you're making a trip in a car. You're going from Town A to Town B. The distance and location of where you're going is known. You can definitely say, "I can get from Town A to Town B." Let's say you're taking this trip and you know where you're at, Town A, and you know that you're trying to go to Town B. You don't exactly know where Town B is though, and you're not even quite sure that Town B does exist. You have a good idea what the area surrounding Town B(knowing everything) looks like though, because you know it's a lot different than Town A(knowing nothing). Knowing this, you can assume you're heading in the right direction (You know more than you knew when you were at Town A). The fact still remains that you've never actually been to Town B (or you would know how to get back), and still aren't quite sure that this town exists even though your current point on the trip looks a LOT different than when you started off.

That probably doesn't make a lot of sense, but I surely love analogies.
on Dec 14, 2004
"The only way it could be assumed that we'll know "everything" at some point, is if the amount of things that CAN be learned is currently definable."


Not if you live in JG's world. Apparently, if he learns something local, he just assumes it is the same everywhere else and pretends it is universal law. JG talks of scientific procedure, but rejects any truly scientific attitude, because he goes ahead and ASSUMES what he can't possibly prove. He pretends he can disprove the existance of God, and then gives a bunch of philosophical wind in return. No doubt philosophy is a science to him to, and not subjective at all... ...

His ideas about politics and religion are completely, totally subjective, but he simply cannot see it. No true scientists can say honestly that something doesn't exist. You simply cannot prove that the universe is devoid of something unless you can inspect the universe. At best you can say that there is no data that leads you to BELIEVE something exists. In the end, belief is all we have.

JG, though, assumes his objectivity is FACT... and it magically is... since everything JG assumes is fact, provable or not.

I doubt seriously he could possibly be a "scientist", or even really well-balanced mentally. It is troubling that he can't see all those "objective" truths he offers above are only backed up by assumption, opinion, and theory. It is like someone preaching against sin with his pants around his ankles. He seriously sees his subjective opinions and oft-debated theories as "Truth". Delusion.

Like his Fundamentalist mirror images, he already "knows". Both are too full of their own "objectivity" to reach. You'd think they'd wonder why things so self-apparent to them would seem so hairbrained to others. I guess JG just makes himself feel better by saying the rest of us are unenlightened.

I mean, read the kind of things he says:

"Since I can prove without a doubt that God doesn't exist and can't possibly exist in the universe, and that creationism in all forms is incorrect, I can say conclusively that there is no God and that creationism is a lie believed by millions of people around the world sold by a group of liers that completely fabricated the old and new testiments (at different times by different people but each successive generation of preachers have participated in the cover up). If you want to get into this, I'll show you the contradicting evidence that shows that the bible is fiction, and that it was created by, in the case of the new testiment, a woman hater named Constantine. (yes Devinci code is actually based on fact)"


Is that objective science? Bullshit. That's hateful subjectivity. I truly doubt the sanity of someone who really believes they are speaking scientifically when they say such garbage.

on Dec 15, 2004

That doesn't sound like objective science to me. It doesn't sound like science at all. I'm no super genius, but the scientists I know of study what they can observe, and formulate hypotheses based on their observations, which will become theories with enough experimentation.

I'd really like to see the science journal in which scientists prove that no supernatural being whatsoever exists using the scientific method, but I'm positive there isn't one. Why? For one, the supernatural is outside the jurisdiction of science.

It might be able to prove specific acts in the Bible to be false, but that doesn't disprove the existence of a deity. It disproves whatever event in the Bible it disproved. To insist that disproving a specific event in history disproves any existence of a deity whatsoever is like saying, "What history books say about Columbus is false, so therefore, humans don't exist."

3 Pages1 2 3